A: This month we’re celebrating pride and we wanted to use this time to highlight breaking down the gender binary. I’ve been an avid follower of Alok Vaid-Menon for the past year or so. They are a gender non-conforming and transfeminine and have used their platform to share their work as a writer and performing artist. I stumbled upon Alok as I was browsing through trying to learn more about androgynous fashion and ended up learning so much more about the world we live in through their book “Beyond the Gender Binary.” I guess I just want to start the same way Alok started talking about this, with a conversation about their childhood.
Have you ever felt like there were certain rules about the way you were supposed to act as a female in your childhood?
M: I think as I read more works like this and other personal accounts, I’m becoming more aware of the expectations I had on me as a child. However, at the time, when everything is so gendered, you can’t really “see” how that is being pushed upon you. But now looking back, it starts with what you’re dressed in as a child. Also slightly related, not so much just being a girl, but being an older sister and having that role forced upon me. The expectation of having maternal instincts as an older sister was something that was more cultivated in me than I saw in my peers who didn’t identify as female.
A: I really relate to that sentiment. It always felt like as an older sister, you were held to higher standards of how to act but at the same time, you were given less freedom than your male sibling. It wasn’t until middle school that I started to feel very anxious about gender roles. At that time, more of my peers were expressing interests in relationships and their self image. I was being introduced to conversations about makeup and clothing that I was supposed to be wearing as a female in order to fit that role. It was really disorienting and scary to have people make judgments about my appearance when I refused to wear makeup and specific clothing at that age. It sort of felt like I wasn’t the woman I was expected to be.
M: I almost had an opposite experience to that where my personality gravitated towards “traditional” feminine traits. It was interesting because my mom is not like me in that sense. I used to love wearing sparkles and I always have my nails done. These superficial feminine traits were things that I wanted as a child, but my mom didn’t necessarily lean towards. One of the most formative memories of this was when I did ballet when I was younger (and I would have been great if I stuck with it, just saying). I remember there were these girls who told me that doing ballet made you a “girly girl” and that was a “bad” thing. I immediately stopped doing it and I realized that it was because there were negative connotations of being a girl who loves pink and big tutus. It felt like you couldn’t win either way. If you did abide by the typical female stereotype, you were reprimanded but if you don’t abide by it, you’re cast out of the group.
A: Have you had an experience when you felt a threat to your identity that someone else was imposing on you?
M: I’m fortunate enough to not have had an experience that completely terrified me. However, there was a time where I was taking an uber pool in Boston. It was just me at first and the driver asked me where I was from. I replied saying that I go to school here in Boston and then he asked “Where’s home?” I replied with “New York” and he said “No, you’re not.” He kept insisting and asking me if I was from Pakistan, and said that he just “needed to check.” At that point, thank god, someone else got into the pool but that was definitely a moment where who I was on the outside became a threat. I could have done nothing if that really was a dangerous situation. As a woman, I can only take precautions to be more careful in my day to day by not walking home late and not wearing headphones, etc. When listening to the podcast “I Weigh” by Jameela Jamil where she has Alok as her guest, Jameela asked how life was different during quarantine. Alok talked about how they felt more safe now, when people aren’t really going out (or at least supposed to). For someone like me, where I complain everyday that I can’t go out and about, I had never even considered that for some people, they are finally getting that freedom to be who they are without fear of other people.
A: Yes, for sure. We can only speak to our experiences as cis women but I cannot even imagine what is like for someone who is trans or gender non-conforming. Something I thought was really interesting in that podcast was when Alok talked about how their identity was constantly being threatened in different ways. Some people would throw trash and expletives at Alok. Others, however, would violate Alok’s personal space and “support” them by hugging and kissing them. Both groups failed to recognize that Alok was still a person, entitled to their own sense of identity and privacy. I remember when we were in Spain, I would get catcalled almost every day. At some point, there was a two week streak going and I would have to work up enough energy and courage to go outside and face it another day. That has been part of my experience as a cis woman. I cannot even imagine what that experience is like for trans and gender non-conformng people.
M: That they have to fear for their life? That they might leave home and not come back at the end of the day? That’s their reality. We cannot even begin to imagine.
A: This book is a lot to take in because there is so much we need to unlearn before we relearn. Was there anything in specific that you found the most enlightening?
M: I definitely learned a lot and it changed the way I talk about articulating certain thoughts within feminism. I really appreciated the way that Alok gave us ways in which we can talk about these issues. I never thought about this before but they brought up the effect of a positive influence. For real change to occur, it really matters what the environment outside your home looks like. You can be as supportive of your friends and family as you want, but without trying to change the outside perspective, so many people’s lives are at risk. Alok talks about moving from Texas to New York. You would think that in cities, they are more accepting. However, so many people in Manhattan, for example, are so against gender non-conforming people. It’s easy to group demographics together as “accepting” but it’s understanding that a lot of this prejudice is ingrained and we might not realize that. At the end of the day, if we are not open minded and willing to learn from the people who have gone through it, there is no point to your self-claimed activism.
A: Alok also points out while social media, movies, and pop culture paints this picture that the queer community is widely accepted. While our society may support trans and gender non-conforming people on these platforms, it’s so rare to see members of this community in the real world. Alok talks about how uncomfortable it can be for them in meetings and these professional settings, how it seems like people care more about what they look like than what they are saying. They’re not a character, they’re not an act, they’re not putting on this persona. This is how they identify and how they want to exist.
M: This really does go back to the lack of intersectionality within feminism. How is that people don’t think that gender non-conforming people fall under the umbrella of feminism when this all started with them? We wouldn’t have any of the progress thus far if people from this marginalized community across cultures hadn’t spoken up and fought for our rights. The idea that these people are “taking away” from feminism and women’s rights is just completely false. There is just so much overlap there.
A: Somehow, feminism has diverged into different groups of people fighting each other about the same issues. It is such a wasted effort and they are divulging from the real issues at hand. The way we move forward is by learning from activists like Alok who are fighting for the equality of all people. It’s by having these conversations like the one we are having now. What I think is so special is that we are two people who have taken the time to try and unlearn and relearn. I hope our readers will also join in on this conversation and check out this incredible book. Thank you to Alok for educating us, we can’t wait to keep learning.